Comments for Messianic Jewish Congregations and Disappointed Gentile Friends at http://www.mjti.com , comment 1 to 72 out of 20 comments http://www.mjti.com Thu, 09 Sep 2010 10:08:09 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-483 "That you have to do a form of "ethnic cleansing" and starve gentiles of the truth of GOD for the purpose of so called holding onto your jewish identity? This is wickedness and not right before GOD." What is more selfish and inconsiderate? Is it for Jews to start their own congregation where Jewish followers of Messiah can finally be at "home" after two thousand years of persecution from all sides and forced assimilation, to raise their children as Jews in a Jewish environment among other like-minded Jews (and have them marry Jews instead of intermarry and risk losing their identity)? Or is it for a Gentile guest to come into a Jewish congregation and DEMAND membership, DEMAND that the often very limited synagogue resources be allocated to their needs (instead of Gentiles helping with needs of Jewish believers as they are exhorted to), DEMAND that they be allowed to partake in Jewish lifecycle and Jewish rituals, DEMAND that Messianic Jews swallow false theologies which teach that Gentiles should become "Torah-observant" or they are really "Lost Tribes of Israel", and join in hating Christianity alongside these so called "guests"? I'll let you draw your own conclusions. - Gene Shlomovich Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:14:24 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-472 My wife and I left a Messianic Synagogue because they did not consider us to be Jewish. Why were we so upset by this? Because the Ruach HaKodesh has written the Torah in our hearts and we desire to follow it. We want to do more than simply avoid doing the four pagan practices of Acts 15 (i.e. eating things polluted by blood, sexual immorality, etc). We want the Torah that King David loved so much. I'm a sinner but my soul wants to cry out "How wonderful is your Torah!" To the converts out there: don't let self-righteous Messianics dissuade you from following Torah. Forgive them and love them. And study Torah with your wives or with your friends. Leave groups that are racist. We left to a different town and prayed that G-d would send us a Torah-observant community and, sure enough, He did just that. We decided one night to visit at a Reform Synagogue on the same night that another Believing family decided to visit that same Reform Synagogue. It turned out that they were running a Torah-observant fellowship group out of their house. So we've been going there and we've been very happy. If Messianics do not want to give you the protections of the Covenant and the Divine Constitution (Torat Moshe) then just leave there and trust in G-d to show you a community that will actually love you and help you learn Torah just as the Early Believers did (Acts 15:21). Shalom and G-d bless! - Yochanan Shimon ben Avraham Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:05:18 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-471 Rabbi Dauermann- THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for saying this and taking action! I wish this had been the norm in Messianic Judaism years ago. (I wish it was the norm now.) - K Wed, 19 May 2010 12:57:47 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-470 I read this article in hopes that i would find some heart felt compassion for gentiles who desire to be in a gathering of a church which has a strong emphasis on the hebraic roots of christianity. To my disapointment, this article just shows the true color of how the "majority" of Messianics feel toward non jews. You write, "We are a family friendly community of Jews and Intermarrieds." So you are really only receptive of "gentiles" who have married a jew, so consequently because of there jewish spouse you receive them warmly. This is not the case whith unmarried gentiles. I come to this conclusion by your other words which testifiy to such a truth. For example, you state, "Gentile will naturally invite gentile friends, and when that happens, our congregation is rapidly demographically overwhelmed. Then our congregation would cease to be or become what it has been called to be." So what your saying is gentiles shouldn't come for the purpose of edification, growth, fellowship all because..well there gentiles and not jews. This will supposedley, "take away your identity" and "overwealm" your demographic. I see...so keep the jews with the jews...and gentiles with gentiles. Yet you are angry when others discriminate against your people for their race. The anger of the LORD burned within me as i read this article. The Scriptures are against such discrimination. IN Christ we are all one, and our identity is in him, though we come from all Nations and cultures. There are no second class citizens with GOD. Yet you say, well they ( the non jews) are disapointed with our church because they expected "steak" at a "vegetarian" resteraunt. In other words they expected to be treated as equalls in the LORD but because they were not regarded as such they were disapointed. To add to such statement you say "we should not be ashamed of their dissapointment". As you stated, " when some gentiles come.... they will be disappointed that we don't treat them or regard them accordingly. Are your eyes really so darkened? That you have to do a form of "ethnic cleansing" and starve gentiles of the truth of GOD for the purpose of so called holding onto your jewish identity? This is wickedness and not right before GOD. Are you any different from the orthodox jews? Or the talmudic prospective of the gentile? God will be the judge over this matter. Congradulations, you have succesfully turned a gentile (non jew) away from your jewish gathering. I mean after all that was probably your aim. I thank God that His salvation and rest is not based on race or how jewish one can be. But on Faith alone, which is accompanied by works. May the LORD bless those who read these words and see the truth of GOD in them. - Raymond Sat, 15 May 2010 16:11:24 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-469 The time is coming when these issues will not seem so important anymore. In that time all your questions and teachings will be answered by the actions of those around you. When those you thought were of you turn against you, when those you thought beneath you come to your aid, when you witness acts of greater love than you thought possible. Obey God, and keep His Commandments from a heart that desires to please Him. Love all men, pray for your enemies, love your family, be faithful to your true wife. Be living epistles!!!!!!!!! - Paul Hunt Wed, 12 May 2010 15:21:16 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-468 We are different, Jew and non-Jew as God intended, but we are the SAME before God. That is, as long as we both believe in and accept the sacrifice/payment that Jesus Christ made on our behalf. We have both been made acceptable to Him through the shed blood of our Lord. There are many parts of the body and they are all different from one another. They each have a different purpose... but they ALL work together in harmony for the same purpose... glorifying God. Some parts have more important roles than others. We should not focus on our roles, but keep our focus on Jesus. We have all been made in God's image, but we are all different from one another. That's God's plan and his desire. We should not focus on our differences, but focus on what unites us all... our Lord Jesus Christ. However, we must be careful not to cause anyone Jew or non-Jew to turn away from our Lord because of how we treated them. I am EXCITED about the Jews accepting Jesus Christ as their Brother and Messiah. I do not have a desire to become Jewish (convert). I am comfortable in my understanding and in my relationship and my daily walk with the Lord and in my role in the Body of Christ. My concern, and it sounds like the concern of several here... what is the reason a person wants to become a Jew who is not Jewish. I find it a reasonable question, as there may be some who feel that the non-Jews will be 'closer' to God or more holy if they convert. That type of thinking is not of God, but Satan. I find it reasonable for the MJ fellowships to want to gently test and question those who desire to make such a change to make sure that their hearts and minds are focused on Christ's sacrifice and not on man's understanding of what makes us right with God. God desires order. He does not desire division. Division is from Satan. The church has seen and continues to experience this unfortunately. This means that Satan is still hard at work trying to divide us and he will continue until Christ's return. The leaders of the MJ fellowship should do EXACTLY what they are doing here... reach out and try and find a solution. I congratulate them on this. The Holy Spirit will show them the way. Together, we should not focus on the minute details of how to serve our great God. We should be in the daily habit of studying His Word and continually surrendering of ourselves to Him (Jew and non-Jew) and asking Him to help us serve Him like Christ would want us to. This way what God wants will be made clear through His Holy Spirit. We are ALL running this race together, let us help each other reach the finish line just as Christ would want us to do. The Messianic Jews are a blessing to us all. They are a sign to me that many other Jews will come to know our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and this is a sign that our Lord will return soon. The most important thing to keep in mind here, is that God is in control and He can do anything He wants and He is and WE are witnesses to this. I personally do not expect large numbers of Jews who do not believe in Jesus yet, to be 'won' over to Him by non-Jews (ie, Christians). I believe that the Messianic movement may be the natural way many Jews who are not believers will become believers in Christ. No believer should stand in the way with small arguments over details as long as Jesus Christ is shown to be the only way how to be made right with God. Traditions and not eating certain foods are important to the Jews and that's OK and proper. That is what God commanded them to do... again as long as Christ is the most important goal and these other items do not over shadow that sacrifice, then I see no problem with it. So if you are not born a Jew and you want to convert, you must search your own heart as to your motives and be sure that Satan has not tricked you into thinking that you will be made 'more' right with God than the shed blood of Jesus. To me this can be a real trap and a real concern for the leaders of the MJ fellowship, as this can cause division and ultimately cause harm to the group and ultimately the whole Body of Christ. Every man must worship God to the best of his ability and his life must be a Light helping those around him to see God's love and his Free Gift. If there is division, then there is not Light. That man must examine his motives. If he will not, then the leaders of that fellowship should. We serve a magnificent God, but we do so in imperfect bodies and minds, so we should all be aware and careful of that. I believe hard times are ahead for the Body of Christ. We must pray for each other everyday, be strong in our faith, help each other and be ready for our Lord's glorious return. Yours in Christ. -Patrick - Patrick Donnelly Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:31:24 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-305 This conversation is quite 1st century, a little too first century. Such contentions should be a thing of the past. Traditional rabbis have dealt better than this to heal worse breaches with Christian leader. When Luther turned to his anti-Semitism, completely pulling the carpet out under Jews who were also involved in the Reformation, Rabbi Josel Roscheim of Strasbourg sought reconciliation with him 7 times, but could never get to see him. You can ask the rabbis the significance of that number and therefore understand Roscheim’s regard for Luther. For Jews and Gentiles that believe there should be far softer arguments than those on this discussion. The LORD has spoken plainly: “Israel is my son, Jacob is my first born.” All that he has he has given to the nations, salvation and eternal life. You shall always stand with him, not as servants but as sons and daughters. But do not begrudge the prodigal if he should return and God should give him a feast. Israel is his firstborn, and for his great namesake he will clothe him in purple and give him his honored place at the table; and the firstborn shall love his younger siblings and do battle for them. Therefore the rabbis have their duty to maintain the first born, for so it is written: “Even for all they have done Israel shall not cease to be a nation before me.” If you have younger siblings coming to your congregations, take them under your wing and teach them properly. Remember, he loves the “little ones” no matter what their age is. Therefore those of you who are older remove the stumbling block and care for the little ones. This is Israel’s glory in all the world, and it is the will of God. - John Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:03:53 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-298 So far in this discussion I haven't realy seen it stated how Jews or Gentiles are to participate in service. Can a Gentile recieve an aliyah to read from the Torah or can they do the kiddush? Is there any distinction in their walk and if so what? Also for full disclosure I have attended a Messianic Synagogue for about 3 years now. I was raised as a Gentile in and out of churches of different denominations. I don't know anything about my lineage past my grandparents (and barely that.) I have had a hatafat dam brit and I keep Torah to the best of my ability. My family and I keep Shabbat and eat Biblically kosher. In our synagogue Jews and Gentiles worship together equally ie there is no distinction in recieving of aliyot or berachot. Our Rabbi has taught that I (and others like me) aren't Jewish but Stuart said "What do you call a Gentile who keeps the entire law? Answer . . . a Jew." Even after 3 years there seem to be many contradictory and confusing ideas in Messianic Judaism. There does't seem to be an agreed upon Halacha and there does seem to be some exclusiveness, which is very disturbing for someone who feels they have been led by G-d to be here but still feels at times like they don't belong. Considering from what I've seen so far Messianic Judasim is already predominately made up of Gentiles (or former Gentiles) who aren't going to abandon G-d's call on their life, these issues need to be better addressed and resolved. - Ben Avraham Sun, 01 Nov 2009 16:47:09 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-297 I have enjoyed the reading and see that you realise the limitations of email - having a Kosher meal, some maiza & wine, talking, hugging a HOLY Kiss with tears and a I am sorry - Soon we will be in Jail together, placed there because we Love the G-d of Israel and Yeshua, that will sort us out!Yeshua Messiah to me it is simple - Salvation is from the Jews. Jewish way of life, clean blood, family, nation and Torah with Oral thoughts - Now Messiah has come, does not end your requirement that you must do, as for me, Elohim knows who I am, the way I should go that is what we Strive to say Abba - O the Joy - the Holy Spirit is working in my life. Now to focus your thoughts, what we Gentiles need with you is The Hebrew Life Jewish Thinking Theocentric - not another type of Theological(roman or greek)church - Be true to your self & Jewish traditions and Life style in Torah and Messiah the Comming Jewish King will make us Eahad and when I come to your assemble, I will be sensitive to your problems and follow your rules - because WE LOVE Him, we MUST love each other not of/in fear for that is not of the Spirit and Torah! Circumsision of Heart, every thought, and motive, Trusting G-D and His Messiah, in His Kingdom today and forever - because of Who G-D is Light, Love, Peace & Judge! hoping you have secured the disparing brother in the text above and secured him. Now In Him who loved Us the only True G-d of Israel, G-D of Abraham Issac & Jacob, King of the Universe who made us His own. Gen 1:1 Deut 6:4 Rev 22 Our King Comes let Him find us ready His People! A G-dfearer Wilson and lover of my Jewish Father Son & (7fold Isa 11:2) Holy Spirit! - Heny Monteith Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:56:14 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-135 And of course, a woman who joins the people of israel does so through mikveh, and validation by appropriate authorities after a time of instruction in Jewish life, as with men. - Stuart Dauermann Mon, 24 Aug 2009 01:01:15 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-134 I regret that busyness has kept me away from this blog. I am committing now to scheduling time each week to keep up on it. On this Jew/Gentile issue, some clarifications. What do you call a Gentile who keeps the entire law? Answer . . . a Jew. But someone who is not ritually circumcised into covenantal unity with the people of Israel is not keeping the Law, and should not resent being excluded from being a Jew. If he chooses not to join that people by the rite of ritual cirucmcision, and by virtue of authorized reception into that people, he remains a Gentile . . . and that is fine. If he wants to assist the Messianic Jewish community in serving the purposes of God for the Jewish people as a Gentile, that is also fine. What is NOT fine is claiming Jewish status on self-selected terms, even if one claims a pile of proof texts. Becoming a Jew is a matter of joining a people, NOT of unilaterally claiming a certain status. Remember, when Ruth opted to join Naomi in returning Bethlehem with her, her first statement was "your people shall be my people." It is a matter of joining a people, and it is truly rude and an act of chutzpah to dictate on what terms you will be included among those people, That is for that people group to decide, and there is no grounds for resentment. Gentiles are NOT second class citizens. And the Church is not second best. It was Yeshua who said that he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, and it is Paul who calls the church the Bride of Christ. To treat participation in the church and membership in it as second best is an insult to the Messiah who died to present it to himself without spot or wrinkle. In general, Gentiles should serve God in the context of the local church. Those who join with the MJ movement should do so as servants of God's will for Israel and the Jewish people, not as architects or renovators of that purpose. And again, they should not scream fowl if they feel excluded: there proper pathway to full inclusion in the people of Israel lies open: it is conversion by time honored procedures and under the supervision of competent authorities. To demand inclusion on one's own terms, even with proof texts, is inappropriate. And last, making a distinction is not something of which we should be ashamed, as one writer opined, no more than making a distinction between male and female is something of which to be ashamed. Just as it is not sinful and shameful for us to uphold marriage as a covenant between male and female, and not male/male, female/female, without insinuating that male or female is inferior to the other, so maintaining the God given distinction between Jew and Gentile is nothing to be ashamed of, nor is it bigotry, More later. - Stuart Dauermann Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:59:35 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-100 As a followup to the comments above it might do well fro Rabbi Dauermann to to refer some of the "disappointed" to the teaching of Russ Resnick on Hesed. This article teaches us to embrace the margins. A good answer for those of us who are Gentiles but are confused by having to embrace our place in the margins! Thank you for this site and the revelation of the scriptures so that we may understand. - Janet S Sun, 09 Aug 2009 15:50:34 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-98 This dialog is interesting because have struggled with this topic myself. In the same vein as Janet's sentiments, let us seek to be led by the Holy Spirit, and be guided in love concerning our (Gentile) role in the Messianic Jewish community. And let us study our motives and be alert to whether fear has any part. How sad it would be if a non-Messianic Jew, seeking to learn about Yeshua, visited a Messianic Jewish congregation and looked about and determined that this was not really a Jewish community, because there were so many Gentiles participating and from his/her perspective it was confusing who was who and which was which. The Apostle Paul expressed that he was free to eat and drink what he pleased, but he would refrain when necessary so as to edify others. The Messianic Jewish community is yet a fledgling organization, and the guidelines that Stuart and other are trying to formulate are on the right track. Making these guidelines clear up front will help to avoid offense and embarrassment and let us know it is not about rejection, but about order and about the greater mission. As believers we can be secure enough in the love of Yeshua to maintain a low profile and take a back seat, while knowing that our Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters do not think any less of us and understand that we are united as equals in Yeshua. For those Gentiles who are led by the Holy Spirit to convert to Judaism, G-d will open the doors and lead them to a congregation where there will be a mutual blessing from this process. Praise G-d that all his ways are peace and that he divinely appoints favor so that his will is carried out. - Theresa Sun, 09 Aug 2009 10:20:54 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-97 How can we make the Jewish people jealous? By this type of discussion or listening to the depth of their teaching? By demanding our place or knowing our place by the teaching of scripture. We have been taught wrong in many cases. Let us learn and not filter our thoughts through old teaching. G-d has given us the Jewish people so that we may Know HIM. I want to know HIM. If I have to sit and relearn scripture to help the Jewish people fulfill their destiny I will have taken my place. Forgive us for our foolishness, Janet - Janet S Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:49:50 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-96 As a Gentile member of a Messianic Congregation I am very disturbed by my Christian family. It seems that the book of Romans has not been taught to them. We who are G-d fearing Gentiles have one purpose. We G-d fearing Gentiles who love the Jewish people have one purpose according to Paul...."But by their (the Jewish members of the congregation) transgression salvation (Yeshua) as come to the Gentiles to make them(Jews) jealous", Romans ll:11. This confused me for years before hearing the teaching from the Jewish community. This Book of scripture was written to the Gentiles in the Congregation in Rome. It was overrun by Gentiles and they (we) were causing the Jewish believers to stumble. Hear the word of Adonai here, "Do not be arrogant toward the branches, but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root but the root who supports you." Romans 11:18. Just because we have the opportunity to hear a love affair between the Messiah and the Jewish people does not give us the right to come between or push into that love affair. WE HAVE REALTIONSHIP WITH MESSIAH BECAUSE OF THE STUMBLING OF THE JEWS. Baruch Ha Shem. Let us listen instead of being so self righteous about our place. G-d Himself has given us a place with Him and the Jewish people. He has given us the Jewish people through whom to reveal Himself. Revel in THAT not stiving for position. Let us take delight in helping the Jewish people to fulfill their destiny in Messiah. The scriptures tell us we will be blessed for it. Please forgive me if I have rambled on. I thank the Jewish people for showing me this love affair. I will never be the same! Janet - Janet S Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:35:07 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-73 The defense rests its case :) - David J Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:14:24 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-72 David, Gene, and all, It is not appropriate on this site to impugn the integrity of others. Better to not simply state our views, and/or discount or characterize the views of others, but rather to explain the basis for our views, especially from a careful exegesis of Scripture. There is nothing to be gained by swapping insults, characterizations and such. Can we get back to Scripture, discussion and explanations of what we each hold to and why? And, wonder of wonders, can any of you respond to the Scriptural arguments that are given, not simply with proof texts, but explanations as to why the position you favor is better substantiated in Scripture? - Stuart Dauermann Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:28:07 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-71 To summarize David J's two posts above, the Messianic Jews are, in his own words: - arrogant - feel superior to non-Jews - sowing discord in the Body - wayward - separatist - building up a wall - contrary to Yeshua - exclusivist / hate filled - shallow - self-serving - like dogs that eat their own vomit - not worthy of his fellowship or time David, do you have anymore "love" to share with the Jewish followers of Yeshua? - Gene Shlomovich Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:08:06 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-70 Clinton, I have to agree with you and the many others who realize the waywardness of this separatist vein. Any wall of separation within the body of Messiah is contrary to Yeshua's prayer of oneness in John 17. Who would dare disagree that ........................................................................................the most hate-full word ever, is .....'exclusive'............................................................................................... I for one try to lose my identiy in the Messiah. Those that claim to follow him, should strive to be like him. The shallow arguements of the Schlomovitches of this world, along with their side-kick attack dogs, are self-serving,and ironically, in a movement led by the one who is selfless. Let them eat their own vomit. I am moving on.... - David J Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:59:22 +0100 http://www.mjti.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Messianic-Jewish-Congregations-and-Disappointed-Gentile-Friends.html&Itemid=0#comment-69 Clinton... I don't think you get the point, frankly. This probably stems from your deep disdain for the Jews, their nation, their history, their traditions, their leadership, and their culture. You would be the last spokesman for unity between Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Messiah. Within Messianic Judaism there's a big difference between Gentiles who want to be WITH Jews, and Gentiles who want to pretend to BE Jews and judaize other Gentiles by telling them they must observe the Mosaic Law to live a life pleasing to G-d. The first group is welcomed by Messianic Jews within our synagogues - many of these Gentiles truly love and support our people, and they do this without lecturing the Jews on how to be Jews or pretending to be something that they are not. They are really the picture of unity between Jews and Gentiles. The second group (to which you seem to belong) does not like Jews very much (along with all their "silly" rabbinical traditions, loyalty to their own people, their pride, their separateness, their "weird" culture, their wanting their children to continue to be Jews). Some are quite antisemitic at their core (pardon me, "anti-rabbinic"). This second group (which usually worships in their very own very special Jew-free "synagogues") thinks they know better than the Jews about how to worship and live under Mosaic Covenant. They keep their own "correct" calendars, keep the laws the "uncorrupted" and "biblical" way, and tell all the Gentiles they come across about how pagan and wicked churches really are. If only these "prideful" Jews just went away somehow - why, it would cause no problem at all - this group of proud "former Gentiles" believes that they are the real Israelites (without all this burdensome and divisive rabbinical stuff that Messianic Jews cling to.) - Gene Shlomovitch Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:09:54 +0100