OK, all this makes sense and very good advice. However, how do you deal with those Gentiles who come into your congregation and CLAIM to be Jews (like those who claim that they "discovered" that their great-great-grandmother didn't eat pork and that her Hispanic surname ends with "-ez", therefore she - and they too - must be "Sephardic Jews")?

Non-Messianic Jews have a way to allow Gentiles to become Jews while Messianic Jews do not. This is interesting in the fact that Peter was the one who baptized the first Gentiles because the Holy Spirit fell upon them as well as the Jews.

This is interesting because the Holy Spirit wasn't limited to just the Jewish apostles. The question is how can Messianic Jews today keep this wall of division between Jews and Gentiles by denying Gentiles the ability to become Jews like both covenents allow?

About Gene: many of the Spaniards that came from Spain were Jews while most from England weren't. Any way, a mature hispanic american should not base their Jewishness by the blood but by the faith.

About Dan: A gentile don't need to be jew to be saved. even if he or she says is a Jew in spite Messianic Jew Congregations don't have a process to do that. Second, they (the new Jews) will not be recognized by the Non-Messianic Jew.

"Non-Messianic Jews have a way to allow Gentiles to become Jews while Messianic Jews do not...."

Dan... that's because Non-Messianic Jews do not know what we know - that through Yeshua any Gentile who so desires can freely become a partaker of the covenants made with the Jewish people. This will not make him a Jew - it will make him a Gentile follower of Yeshua.

"The question is how can Messianic Jews today keep this wall of division between Jews and Gentiles by denying Gentiles the ability to become Jews like both covenents allow?"

That's the whole point - Gentiles do not need to become "Jews" to be accepted by the G-d of the Jews, and neither do they do not become Jews by accepting Yeshua. G-d loves all nations he created. When Messiah returns, there will be many distinct and redeemed nations in His Kingdom - all worshiping G-d together with the nation of Israel.

"many of the Spaniards that came from Spain were Jews while most from England weren't."

It doesn't really matter - I don't buy into the myth of all powerful Jewish blood where someone can be mixed with countless generations of non-Jews, whose ancestors for generations lived as non-Jews, but all of a sudden, with smallest of evidence, start claiming to be Jewish.

Please note one interesting fact: Samaritans were a mix of Jews and Gentiles. And yet, despite having some "Jewish blood" and even claiming Ya'akov/Israel as their father (John 7-12), Yeshua himself called them "foreigners" (Luke 17:11-19) . What's more, he even told his disciples not to enter Samaritan cities, but to go through the cities of Israel instead (Matthew 10:5).

So, to summarize: being Jewish is not just about having some blood or a finding a Jewish ancestor from long ago. To be Jewish means having a shared history, culture, self-perception, shared persecution, having Jewish relatives, being part of Jewish community, thinking like a Jew, feeling shame when other Jews do something bad, hurting when Jews get hurt.... you can't just recreate all this from nothing.

"Any way, a mature hispanic american should not base their Jewishness by the blood but by the faith."

A saved Gentile is a saved Gentile - G-d loves and accepts him or her just the way he/she is - without his/her "Jewishness". By faith a non-Jewish person is already a child of Abraham (but not of Ya'akov/Israel) and just as beloved by G-d. Abraham was called "father of many NATIONS", and not just one nation "Israel". This means that there's nothing wrong with being part of any nation other than the nation of Israel - this will not prevent one from being an adopted child of Abraham. What matters is being part of the Kingdom, the Commonwealth of Israel, where Messiah will rule.

Gene: "Yeshua any Gentile who so desires can freely become a partaker of the covenants made with the Jewish people. This will not make him a Jew - it will make him a Gentile follower of Yeshua."

Eph 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

One can't be a "fellow citizen with God's people" and be separated as a Jew and Gentile. Either the "the dividing wall of hostility" has been torn down or it hasn't. Which is it?

Dan... first of all, you are quoting the scripture, thinking it supports your argument of Gentiles becoming Jews and that it means what you think it does - it doesn't. Notice that it doesn't say what you want it to say: "you former Gentiles".

Notice also that it says "you who ARE" (present tense) Gentiles by birth.

Let me translate for you what it all means in plain English:

"In the past (or formerly), you who ARE Gentiles by birth were separate from Christ, Israel and the covenants."

You said: "One can't be a "fellow citizen with God's people" and be separated as a Jew and Gentile. Either the "the dividing wall of hostility" has been torn down or it hasn't. Which is it?"

Dividing wall of hostility was that Gentiles were estranged from G-d and from worshiping with G-d's people, Israel. Now, through Yeshua, they finally can - but nowhere does it say that Gentiles now become Jews! We, Jewish and Gentile believers, were made one in Yeshua - very true. Does being "one" mean that everybody is now a "Jew"? Why then does than Shaul (Paul) continuously keeps calling his non-Jewish audience of believers "Gentiles" - didn't they convert and now all "Jewish"? That wouldn't make much sense.

In Eph 3:, after, according to you, Shaul just said "former Gentiles", Shaul goes on to say the following:

"For this cause, I Shaul, the prisoner of Messiah Yeshua for you Gentiles..."

Let me ask you a simple question: when two people get married and become ONE in flesh, do they stop being male and female? Do they have exactly the same roles and responsibilities in the family? And is one better than the other just because they are different?

Another question for you: show me a SINGLE instance in the NT where a Gentile believer in Yeshua is called a Jew or Israelite, spiritual or otherwise. If you can't find it (and you won't) why do you insist to be called or thought of as a "Jew" then?

Gen, Thank you for considering me a reasonable man with an intellect instead of demanding me to follow you blindly or by force.

From my position, I don’t see this as the model of “male and female” as the right model for the follow reasons.

1. I don’t see a wall of hostility existing before marriage that is knocked down after marriage. Many testify the opposite occurs.
2. I can see “aliens” and “citizens” having different roles. But I don’t see “new citizens” and “existing citizens” having different roles.

Instead, my model of the wall of hostility being knocked down is like the discrimination blacks faced from whites. First was “total separation” and then it was “separate but equal.” In this case, the Gentiles are ones being kept out by the Jews.

When eliminating “walls of hostility,” the first wall that has to go is the language barrier. Knocking down the language barrier would be by saying, “These are my brothers David and Luke” instead of “This is my Jewish brother David and my Gentile brother Luke.”

In fact, Paul spends the first three chapters of Ephesians attempting to get the Gentiles to understand that they have been offered being a “citizenship” into God’s kingdom. Why? Can you imagine being a Gentile and hearing all your life about how the God of Israel was only for Jews? Paul is writing this letter to Gentiles as the passage I quoted was the first time Jew or Gentile was mentioned. In addition, Acts 19 says the Jews in Ephesus “publicly maligned the Way.”

Paul, like all Messianic Jews, desperately want(ed) Gentiles to engage to that which they have been called.

Eph 4:1 **1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received**.
Eph 5:1 **1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us**
Eph 6: **10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God**

But Paul felt he had to say Eph 1-3 before he could beseech the Gentiles to live a life as they were called by God to do in Eph 4 -6. Why? It is difficult to move from total separation to total inclusion on both sides of the wall.

Can you summarize Ephesians differently where you can show me the “equal but different role” I have missed?

Gene-

Nice additional thoughts and comments to Rabbi Stuart's article.

Good thoughts, Stuart and Gene. Would appreciate more suggestions of 'practical' mechanisms for avoiding/dealing with disappointment among our congregants (both present and potential). Your initial suggestions seem geared toward newcomers, but neglect the delicate situation of a long-attending congregant who complains of "second class citizenship" after several years of involvement.

Also, we haven't really figured out in any uniform way the parameters of an appropriate role for a Gentile who's committed to our movement and really seems to understand the consequences of that commitment, without any sense of entitlement. It's all very ad hoc and differs by community. Can we understand, then, why our committed friends feel pushed around?

Thanks, Joshua.

Monique - I also would like for Stuart to list some practical suggestions on dealing with this issue. Perhaps he will in his next post - this would be much appreciated.

Personally, I think it comes down to us being forthright with our Gentile friends attending MJ synagogues. We should not seek to offend, but rather minister truth in love. It may mean asking our Gentile friends some tough questions, such us: why are you really here and what is your vision for this congregation?

If the reasons given by our Gentile friends reveal self serving agendas (e.g." I want to observe Torah and celebrate feasts", "I like worshiping with Jews", "I am an "Ephraimite", "I want to be accepted as a Jew", "we are all Israel", "I have equal rights", etc.), rather then sincere heartfelt desire to build up the Jewish body of Messiah, help Jews to be Jews and help the "lost sheep of Israel" find their Shepherd - one would FIRST need to work on correcting the vision of this person. He's there for all the wrong reasons. Perhaps he'd feel differently once he realizes that - or he will leave the congregation (which may not be such a bad move for all involved).

Establishing Messianic Jewish Halakha would be another step in the right direction. But many MJ congregations can't even agree if Torah is still for today and many are basically Hebrew Roots churches started as Christian outreaches. Barring some miracle of HaShem, it may be awhile before we see any uniformity in our movement.

Gene-

All I can add to your above thoughts is "AMEN!"

I appreciate what your specific congregation is attempting to do. The principle stated was, **when two people get married and become ONE in flesh, do they stop being male and female?** Let me use a summary of Acts this time.

In the beginning, there were 120 of Yeshua’s disciples praying as He commanded them prior to His ascension. This Messianic Jewish congregation is what gave birth to Gentile coming into the Church.

The first Messianic congregation had much on her plate. The Messianic Jewish congregation of 120 exploded to 3,000 MJ hours after her inception and then 5,000 MJ men after the Messianic congregational leader when to pray (for guidance I would imagine.) The point is, with:

1. the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira,
2. the stoning of Stephen,
3. and Saul going house to house throwing the Jewish membership in jail and scattering them everywhere,

this was not the time anyone wanted to add controversy. In fact, ** the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."**

Adding Gentiles to this Messianic congregation was not part of their mission statement or their understanding of what they were to be doing for God. However, Cornelius was told by God to go to Peter, a MJ, it was OK to go with Cornelius. As Peter said, **“17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"** (Act 10-11) http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...version=31

It is at this point we need to examine the scriptures to find the “separate but equal” examples.

1. The MJs wanting there to be a separation miss an important fact:

There was no separate but equal facility or training opportunity for Gentiles like Cornelius to go in that day. This is the same argument blacks stated in their fight for equality.

The Gentiles, by default, had to go to a Messianic Jews for training. If Messianic Jews didn’t train Gentiles about the correct way to worship, then Gentile didn’t get any more training than “abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.” (Acts 15 & 21)

2. It was from the teaching of the MJ congregation in Jerusalem that got the men from Cyprus and Cyrene got their understanding that it was OK for MJs to witness Gentiles. Still, it was difficult for all MJs to accept this as Barnabas was sent to investigate a second time. Barnabas was the one that brought Paul to Anticoch…a congregation under the authority of the Messianic congregation from Jerusalem.

Paul’s final words to those in Ephesus (who got a letter from him while in prison) says, **21I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.** (Acts 20) If there is a “separate but equal” theology, then did the Messianic Jews in Anticoch teach Jews wrong?

There is no evidence that there were “separate but equal” roles in any of his letters as I previously pointed out. And if there are roles to play like “male and female” then Jews need to be with Jews as Gentiles need to be with Gentiles. All those in Anticoch would have violated this principle.

3. MJ Paul taught Gentile Luke. Therefore, when interpreting Acts, it is logical to like in Paul's writings for clarifications.

4. Today’s missionary message from MJs to Gentiles is given in gospel presentations on street corners in the time it takes to whistle, “Just as I am”. Five minutes later, complete strangers are to receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, pray the sinner’s prayer, and give their names and addresses to MJs. Five minutes is all the Gentile gets regardless if they make a profession of faith or not. If they make a profession of faith, the Gentile are surprised to learn day or weeks later that they were handed off to a local Gentile congregation. Getting Gentile “babes in Yeshua” to grow up in a body of believers is not a part of the MJs missionary’s mission statement.

Do MJs and Gentiles have the responsibility of training those God gives to them or are hand offs mandatory as “separate but equal" type roles” indicate?

Dear Dan... I will try to answer your lengthy post when I get a bit more time (or, perhaps someone else here may want to take a stab at this?).

However, before we get any farther in our discussion, I would like to ask you to STOP using the phrase "separate but equal” (the term used to describe racist segregation of blacks and whites in the United States in 50's and 60's). It's insulting.

Instead, if you still insist on using one catch phrase in your argument, I would like to propose that you use another phrase that truly reflects the heart of Messianic Jews towards our Gentile brothers and sisters:

-- Equal and United, yet Different --

Shalom.

Gene, I would love to use your phrase, -- Equal and United, yet Different --. However, I think Mathematically or at least not grammatically!

There is something about using "Equal" and "Different" in the same phrase I can't wrap my head around. I tried to use the male and female roles as you suggested ....but I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for defining what the exclusive roles of women and men are and compare these roles to the exclusive roles of Jews / Gentiles.

Exclusivity is the point of discussion, is it not?

I will attempt to phrase my singular question in 3 different ways for clarity:

1. “What is the role of Gentiles that they are to do that Jews are not to do so they balance?”

2. Or if…
Jew = Gentile + more
How is the above equal or compared to gender?

3. Instead of managing Gentiles expectations at the door, why not point them to the scriptures that clarifies the differences between the Jew’s role and the Gentile’s role?

Looking forward to your response,

Dan

I agree with Gene in his first post about my comments, I just didn't write of it, sometimes this discussion looks like a races issues.

But when a goy (gentile) became a 'believer' in Yeshua, he or she are becoming in a ' Goy HaKadosh' (Holy Gentile) as a 'jew', more in the way of our father Abraham. This is the simple meaning of being Jews.

But nowadays be a jew is more than that and this is the main issue with the holy gentiles, their background. In any nation this cultural issues make differences and this problem isn't new, because of that every Shabat Moshe is taught in the congregations (Acts 15) .

About the "second class citizenship", a holy gentile have to be humble, study more and be a Talmid (student), after all God loves the weak and underestimated.

Jorge,

From what you have written, it appears that you disagree with Gene about that:

***phrase that truly reflects the heart of Messianic Jews towards our Gentile brothers and sisters: -- Equal and United, yet Different --***

Instead, you appear to agree that

a Jew = a Gentile + more. If I may clarify, a Jew can do everything a Gentile can do and more but there are only certain things a Jew can do that Gentiles simply can't.

But Acts 15 doesn't support this position. Do you have another scriptural reference that would?

The reason for the counsel meeting was the fact that the Pharisees group were requiring Gentiles to be circumcised before entering the MJ congregation. There was no discussion of role once the Gentile was a member as our conversion is about.

Peter supports the position that God about being able to join a MJ congregation. Peter said, "8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith."

This is was Paul said he did in Acts 20: "21I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

There was no mention of a Gentile's "background" or needing a special histoy. And there were no Gentile churches. All Gentiles were members of MJ congregations which is why I ask what a Gentile needed to do to be a member as the first MJ congregations had a mix.

I am a chrsitian and want to be a "Messianic Jew" but how? All your arguments are confusing me. Do I have to go through a ritual to make me a "Messianic Jew" or will I never be allowed to because i am not from jewish decent? So even if I follow all jewish laws and celebrate all the feast days and jewish holidays I will never be considered a Messianic Jew because I wasn't born Jew then began to believe in Yeshua?

"So even if I follow all jewish laws and celebrate all the feast days and jewish holidays I will never be considered a Messianic Jew because I wasn't born Jew then began to believe in Yeshua?"

You got it, Lef - your understanding is correct.

Being a "Jew" is being part of the ethnic historically and nationally identifiable Jewish people (with everything that entails), and it is not at all about doing as many "Jewish" things as one can. That's a mistaken thinking of many Gentiles attending Messianic congregations.

The conversion ritual that you are referring to is a relatively recent (biblically speaking) Jewish rabbinical innovation. Also of note is the following: it seems that during Yeshua's time, those Gentiles who converted to Judaism were NOT even called "Jews" - they were called "proselytes" (see Acts 2:10, for contrasting of "Jews" and "proselytes", and Act 6:5 for Nicolas, who was a proselyte from Antioch.) Besides proselytes, there were also G-d-fearers - Gentiles who attached themselves in varying degrees to the Jewish worship and way of life without as becoming full proselytes. So, Lef - if you are a Gentile, all the things you described as you'd be following would qualify you as a "G-d-fearer", and not a Messianic Jew.

Also, the conversion is not just a ritual - today's modern conversion to Judaism (especially Orthodox) is a very arduous process that can take years in some cases, and many (most) drop out before completion it or are disqualified by the rabbinical judges in the end. But before the process of conversion can even begin, a Gentile conversion candidate is actually discouraged three times from joining the Jewish people (just like Naomi was trying to send Ruth away and Ruth pleaded NOT to be send away) and the seriousness of his commitment to the Jewish people, the Jewish Law and the Jewish G-d is constantly evaluated and tested.

Messianic conversions are being advocated by some in Messianic Judaism, but there no universal agreement or approval of this process as of yet.

I can see that both: Dan and Gene are right. Gene focus the Jews like a ethnic nation and Dan focus in the spitirual face, two face of the same coin.

To be 'jew' is like a citizenship of any other nation with a Cultural and historical background.

But when we quote the book of Act in the chapter 2 or 8 we have to remember that by that time they had not revealed yet what Paul understood very good and as Peter in act 10 (Act 10:35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.). The role of the Gentile in the Pact.

Nowadays it seems that many Messianic jews are struggling still with the view of Acts 2 or 8 (when the MJ was learning about the 'pact renewed') and hadn't learned what goes next (the holy olive tree)

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, in Dan words: " Equal and United, yet Different "

However it is impossible to a gentile changes his ethnic to Jew plus the historical differences

But what distinguishes the Messianic Jews with the 'Non-Yeshua-Jews' is that our 'body of Yeshua' isn't based only in ethnicity but also in faith.

Because in the end, we are adopted children of the same Hole Father. The Jews was first then the others Nations. Paul got this.

So you are saying that who your parents are determines your relationship with God...and who are your full brothers and sisters in Yeshua and who are your half brothers and sisters are in Yeshua?

"So you are saying that who your parents are determines your relationship with God...and who are your full brothers and sisters in Yeshua and who are your half brothers and sisters are in Yeshua?"

Who your parents are determines whether or not you are a Jew. As simple as that. If you are a Jew, you are under the blessings or condemnations which are part of G-'d covenant with Israel whether you like it or not, whether you obey it or not, or whether you even believe in G-d or not. That what makes a Jew different (Rom 11:29).

I am not sure where you got your "brother" / "half-brother" / "relationship with God" conclusions.

In the non-Messianic community, Judaism is determined by the faith of ones mother. In only the rarest of occasion can the mother be Jewish and the child not be considered Jewish. When did the Messianic definition of Judaism change from the non-Messianic definition?

Ro 11:20 "But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith."

Obviously, there is only one tree from which God can break off or graft in. How does a tree branches many different roles when it can be broken off and wild branch be grafted in its place?

"In the non-Messianic community, Judaism is determined by the faith of ones mother. In only the rarest of occasion can the mother be Jewish and the child not be considered Jewish. When did the Messianic definition of Judaism change from the non-Messianic definition?"

Did you read my answer - did I not say that one's parents determine one's Jewishness? As far as mother/father or both argument - the Reform (which represents the majority of modern non-Messianic Judaism, at least in America) argues that either father OR mother determines Jewishness. In the Bible, one can plainly see that fathers determined offspring Jewishness. Messianic Judaism accepts either one parent's lineage. The State of Israel accepts anyone with a Jewish grandparent for aliyah (perhaps G-d himself arranged it this way).

"Obviously, there is only one tree from which God can break off or graft in. How does a tree branches many different roles when it can be broken off and wild branch be grafted in its place?"

A good friend of mine, Derek Leman, once answered a similar question will the following;

"I have a horticultural expert in my synagogue. His common sense wisdom is something that many interpreters of the phrase “grafted in” desperately need. My friend says to me, “A branch grafted onto a tree never changes its nature.”

That is, a wild olive grafted onto a cultivated variety of olive tree, will never become a cultivated olive branch. Readers of the New Testament will certainly recognize the analogy from Romans 11, “If some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, do not boast over the branches.”

I couldn't have said it better myself.

"My friend says to me, 'A branch grafted onto a tree never changes its nature.'"

How does what your friend say compare to what Paul said?

"Col 3:7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

Did Paul change his mind from the time he wrote Col and Ro 6?

***Ro 6:20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.***

As Yeshua is the head of His body, He is the only one able to call and commission His people into His service. As God has used many Gentiles to reach Jews, it is impossible to conclude the task of reaching Jews is only for Jews.

Likewise, if God grafted the Gentiles into the "Jewish tree," then the Messianic congregation should be a reflection of God's example in their congregations....as the Jewish Apostles brought Gentiles in the first Messianic congregations.

All branches of the tree were broken off by sin and all branches have been grafted in by grace. If the old Gentile sinful nature remains as part of the branch as your friend suggests, then so does the old Jewish sinful nature remain. Both Jew and Gentile need "works" to complete their salvation as "faith and grace" weren't all that was needed.

Is this your position?

In the real life is hard to manage a Congregation, even more a Messianic Jew with so many paradigms.

There has always been many kind of congregations, some more strict than others. The problem rise when a 'Holy gentile' isn't helping to reach the goals of the congregation due to his or her lack of knowledge, commitment and/or faith, it wouldn't match with the vision.

This person has two option: leave or comply under the requirements of the congregation. This have already happened even if that person if jew or not like says Paul:" branches broken off" in any case.

On the other hand the MJ Congregation must not forget the 'last commandment' of Yeshua; "teach all nations" Mat 28:19, becoming them Talmidim (stundents) of the Torah by Yeshua.

My concern is How much are we using the traditions of men to bring our Jewish brethren? like treat a 'holy gentile' like a proselite (in the moderm way) or removing them and in the same time to teach the Torah to the nations.

We must work on being accepted by the others Jews denominations with our special way, the way of Yeshua.

So the frase "We are a family friendly community of Jews and Intermarrieds." doesn't looks kosher for the growth of our faith towards fulfill a difficult job; to show Yeshua to the Jews and discipline the nations with His teaching.

"So the frase "We are a family friendly community of Jews and Intermarrieds." doesn't looks kosher for the growth of our faith towards fulfill a difficult job; to show Yeshua to the Jews and discipline the nations with His teaching."

I think that delineation must be made between having a Jewish community that can live as Jews and Messianic Jews being part of the overall Body of the Messiah. For some reason, it's only the Jews who get accused of trying to "be separate."

This hypocritical accusation is leveled by those parties who themselves have separated themselves from the rest of the Body in some fashion - be it through dogmas or creeds, denominational or national backgrounds (or in the case of Gentile Judaizers within pseudo-Jewish "messianic" movements, through separating themselves from other believers in Yeshua who are "stuck" in what they term "pagan Christianity".)

So, we are back at the "Jewish question". It seems that, unlike any other ethnic "congregations" (African American, Hispanic, Korean, Haitian, etc), only the Messianic Jews do not have the right to assemble in their own communities, to preserve their distinct national identity and culture, to protect their children from assimilation into the dominant foreign culture, or to direct their own community affairs free from external interference by those who have a different agenda.

The solution is for Messianic Jews to ignore their detractors, welcome their supporters, and move on. Jews, historically speaking, have already proven themselves as light unto Gentiles (willingly or unwillingly) without making Gentiles into Jews or requiring Gentile to trade in their G-d-given identity and culture for a Jewish one (as almost inevitably happens in today's Messianic Jewish congregations), and will continue to do so (by G-d's grace and strength).

I couldn't agree more with you Gene, last night I spoke about this with my brother getting to your same asseveration: "those parties who themselves have separated themselves from the rest of the Body in some fashion" we have seem this many time for the same reason you mentioned.

My comments have been a self-criticism to a matter of the real life in the 'Jewish question' because we are not perfect, even if we were perfect:

"I have seen a limit to all perfection; Your commandment is exceedingly broad." Psalm 119:96

To claim that is it right for any race or ethnic group to minister exclusively to their own kind and rejecting others that G-d has given is simply wrong....black, white, red, yellow, Jew, hispanic, asian, whatever. The choir in heaven will be mixed. Why should anyone get to heaven and not know what it is like to worship with brothers and sisters from all nations simply because they didn't meet the list of requirements made up by those with good intentions?

Yeshua is the head of ONE body. He is the one who equips all for service. In fact, the reason God uses the weak is that mankind can't confuse the ratio of how little humanity is responsible with reaching others with the message God gave us and the Holy Spirit makes alive to those who would hear.

You seem to forget God is not looking for our plans to save the Jews. Yeshua is the stumbling block and the power of the Holy Spirit is what touches Jews hearts. Let's not get too big headed to figure out that until we know the number of hairs on the person's head that we are trying to minister, we haven't begun to get a clear understanding of our role.

The first Messianic congregations actually didn't have a plan in Acts 2 or 3. God brought those He wanted to the congregation and the Apostles reacted to what God did. The same occurred in chapter 6 and 10.

So when did God ask us to create a plan that He, Himself, didn't reveal as He did with the prophets? (Joel 2)

"To claim that is it right for any race or ethnic group to minister exclusively to their own kind and rejecting others that G-d has given is simply wrong....black, white, red, yellow, Jew, hispanic, asian, whatever."

First off all, today's Messianic Jews share Yeshua with anyone who G-d sends our way. The earliest Jewish believers historically have done more to spread the Good News to other nations than any group in history. So your charge is groundless.

We DO believe in prioritizing our ministry to our own Jewish people over that of any other group. If you think it's wrong of us to do that, re-read Romans 1:16. Perhaps that's where you get offended - you don't believe that Jews should get this "special treatment", right?

"You seem to forget God is not looking for our plans to save the Jews. "

I am not sure what you're trying to say here - are you saying that we should just sit there and wait for something? Messianic Jews want to live as Jews and we want minister to our own people, the nation of Israel (Isaiah 40:1-11). If you do not think that you too should minister to Israel or that Israel is no more special to you than any other people, that's between you and G-d.

"Likewise, if God grafted the Gentiles into the "Jewish tree," then the Messianic congregation should be a reflection of God's example in their congregations....as the Jewish Apostles brought Gentiles in the first Messianic congregations. "

You don't seem to understand the dynamic of the current situation in Messianic Jewish congregations. The problems is not that Gentiles wish to join us - the problem is that many of the Gentiles in our congregations wish to BECOME US - they want to become Jews. To that end, they take on Hebrew names, they tell other people that they are "Jewish", they wear Jewish garments and objects in their daily lives and in congregations, they demand to be allowed to participate in Jewish traditional life rituals, they want their children to have bar/bat mitzvas, and many of them teach other Gentiles that they MUST observe Mosaic Law as given to Israel to be pleasing to G-d.

Do you see anything wrong with this picture - do you think that this is what G-d has intended for the nations - for everyone to become Jewish? Perhaps you're looking at this from outside and don't know what the reality is. Seriously.

I have decided to weigh in on this topic. To begin with I will not use scripture, that is too easily done, and we both have scripture at our disposal to use as we see fit. I may disagree with you and you will no doubt disagree with me. What I want to talk about about is attitude. I am a born again believer of Yeshua. I cannot prove by bloodline that I am a jew. As I understand it, to call yourself a jew you must be of the tribe of Judah or Benjamin. I may or may not one day prove my bloodline to another tribe, which would give me claim to being a child of Israel, but still not a jew, per se. But, your exclusive attitude is what always takes me by surprise. Now, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I know that my heart is pure and my walk in ordained by G-d. I didn't decide one day to take this on, I was called, not because I'm special but because I was hungry and searching. As far as some messianic synagogues are concerned, yes I truly feel unwanted, and put up with not accepted, as if I were a second class believer. Where is your joy that I have come to a clearer understanding of Apostolic and 1st century teaching? Of living my faith the way Yeshua taught, and the apostles strived to give to all that were called. You don't know the ingrained love I have for Israel, that it is my home, that you are my people. How dare you judge me. Yes I am torah observant, I keep kosher, and honor the holy days. My sabbath is your sabbath, not because it is chic or the religion of the week, but because It is what is taught in the Torah, and it is G-d's law. I will find a synagogue where I can worship and I will be included, and the loss will be yours, not because I am so special, but because I am just another believer who really cares, who is not a fake, and who just wanted to be a part of a synagogue, that I could called home. I do have one question for you though, why does it always seem that Jewish people cannot understand why anyone would want to be considered and counted with the Jews, like it is the worst thing to be and I should be lucky that I am not.
It seems to me that being a person of faith who is a follower of Yeshua, should first and foremost learn humility. Be proud of who you are, yes, but in a way that is more servant like, more inclusive, more helpful. In the end whether you believe it or not we will all be brothers and sisters in the same family. Neither Jew nor Gentile.
I remain His servant,
Raiza

Gene said: " It seems that, unlike any other ethnic "congregations" (African American, Hispanic, Korean, Haitian, etc), only the Messianic Jews do not have the right to assemble in their own communities, to preserve their distinct national identity and culture, to protect their children from assimilation into the dominant foreign culture, or to direct their own community affairs free from external interference by those who have a different agenda."

Please remember your words before you state I have not address your position correctly.

When you were broken off the Jewish olive tree you were grafted back in not by the faith of your parents and that which you held sacred before you died and buried your old self.

You were grafted back on a tree with branches from every nation where there tree no longer looks Jewish. Does that image of the tree of life offend you? If so, then your problem is with what God has done and not with Gentiles. This is the reality of the situation, seriously.

Perhaps you are looking and longing for the tree to look like you and your community instead of the multi-cultural and national look as God has personally arranged the tree. Again, if you have problems with what God has done, take it up with Him. He will answer your prayers.

But you can't quote Acts 15 and say Gentiles must not observe the Mosaic Law and not allow Gentiles into your congregation. No where is in scripture does it say that "Messianic Jews have the right to assemble in their own communities, to preserve their distinct national identity and culture, to protect their children from assimilation into the dominant foreign culture" when that "foreign culture" are Gentile believers.

Once again, God's choir is going to be mixed. All His congregation including Messianic congregations should not be shocked when they get to heaven and have to stand shoulder to shoulder with Gentiles from all nations.

Jamie... lets examine your words:

"When you were broken off the Jewish olive tree you were grafted back in not by the faith of your parents and that which you held sacred before you died and buried your old self. You were grafted back on a tree with branches from every nation where there tree no longer looks Jewish."

Your assumption is that every Jew everywhere was broken off from the tree and had to be redrafted just like the Gentiles. Does the scripture say that?

Romans 11:17 "But if SOME of the branches were broken off..."

As I said before, and it's nothing to do with "sin", a wild branch attached to a cultivated tree doesn't magically turn into a cultivated branch - rather, it only feeds on the better nourishment from that tree, and it certainly doesn't lose it's own identity and it's distinct fruit (i.e., a Gentile doesn't turn into a Jew). That is if you take the grafted in analogy seriously - which I suspect you don't.

'But you can't quote Acts 15 and say Gentiles must not observe the Mosaic Law and not allow Gentiles into your congregation. "

I can quote Acts 15 enough to tell you that it's NOT G-d's plan for Gentiles to take on the Torah as given via Moshe to Israel. If you personally choose to follow Jewish laws and traditions - it's your own business. But if you will come into our community and teach other Gentiles there that they MUST follow it and live as Jews to be acceptable to G-d - you will be shown the door. As simple as that.

We do have Gentiles in our congregations and they are welcome. But, as a community we don't have to ask YOU for the right to determine who can be part of it - even most churches have memberships and they ask their members to abide by certain principles if they want to be part of a specific church or denomination.

If someone comes in with an agenda to change the community in their own mold and try to subvert it with strange theologies and myths and they do not repent from this, they will be also shown the door. This will be done to protect our community.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.

Shalom

All:

"Listening in" and I understand the fears of ethnic assimilation, but aren't ethnic assimilation and spiritual assimilation two different matters? If Jews must follow Torah to be acceptable to G-d and Gentiles must not follow Torah to be acceptable to G-d, we end up with two different G-ds which is where we all started to begin with in the split between 1st CE Messianic Judaism and "the church." I am of Jewish descent (grandmother), but I keep hearing a lot more of Talmud in this discussion than I hear of haShem.

Here is some kosher meat to chew on for a minute:

For he is not a Yehudite who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
But a Yehudite is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in Spirit, not literally, whose praise is not from men but from Elohim. Rom 2:28-29

What is the sap of the tree? You need to define that for us all. If the sap of the tree is being ethnically Jewish, I will renounce my ethnic Jewishness for the sake of my Gentile brothers. The point of all this is Messiah, and he seems to play a pretty small role in this discussion.

I just see the barrier of the dividing wall going up further in this discussion, and yes I understand that if G-d had given Torah to whites and now that I have discovered Torah and Messiah but I am black, and I can never be white I would still expect to be accepted into a white congregation because of Messiah. I cannot change my genetics any more than a Gentile can. As haShem's prophet has said:

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may you also do good, who are accustomed to do evil.

Or in this discussion, can a Gentile change his genetics, etc.

That is the sound of this discssion if Torah is good in a universal sense. My Gentile friends are left to their own devices and just may as well keep Christmas because it is of no use to keep Succoth as a Gentile. Poor Ruth, and she was in the line of Messiah. What a mistake!

You lost me there somewhere but I still consider you achim (in the plural)

In Messiah's grip, not in the grip of my genetics

Steve

Well said Steve!

Steve...

""Listening in" and I understand the fears of ethnic assimilation, but aren't ethnic assimilation and spiritual assimilation two different matters?"

I am not sure you are aware of the difference between the Jewish "ethnicity" and that of other nations. As attested in the Torah repeatedly, Israel was always and will be “a nation that SHALL dwell apart and not be counted among the nations” (Numbers 23:9) Which means that unlike all the other nations of the world, the ethnic, national identity as well as the mutual destiny of my people are inseparably connected to our Jewish nation's G-d-given spirituality. Having been born and raised as a non-Jew, your grandma non-withstanding, I do not expect you to understand, emphasize, or care. We come from a different background and just see things quite differently. And that's OK.

"If Jews must follow Torah to be acceptable to G-d and Gentiles must not follow Torah to be acceptable to G-d, we end up with two different G-ds which is where we all started to begin with in the split between 1st CE Messianic Judaism and "the church."

Read Acts 15. Apparently the Jewish Apostles did not share your sentiment that different APPLICATIONS of the same Torah for two different groups would somehow result in two different gods. You do know that Torah contains laws and instructions that apply differently to different groups of people (men, women, priests, widows, foreigners, elders, brothers, daughters, tribes, lepers, etc.) even within Israel, right?

"For he is not a Yehudite who is so outwardly..."

You're misinterpreting Rom 2:28-29 in a classic replacement theology fashion - in this view, the "real Jew" is now anyone who believes in Jesus. Is that your position? If so, it's certainly nothing new and certainly nothing "kosher" to chew on, my friend - we've heard it all before.

"I just see the barrier of the dividing wall going up further in this discussion"

The spiritual dividing wall that prevented Gentiles from sharing in Israel's spiritual blessings and being citizens in Israel's commonwealth was destroyed by Messiah himself, and no human can ever rebuild it. Jews did not build it in the first place (it was put in place by G-d himself until Messiah's atoning sacrifice - before which Gentiles were without hope - Ephesians 2:12). So, this is a groundless accusation commonly thrust upon Messianic Jews by SOME who are antagonistic to Jews within Messianic Judaism. Especially considering since this accusation is not even found anywhere in the scriptures.

"That is the sound of this discssion if Torah is good in a universal sense. My Gentile friends are left to their own devices and just may as well keep Christmas because it is of no use to keep Succoth as a Gentile. Poor Ruth, and she was in the line of Messiah. What a mistake!"

You seem to have a very low view of both Christians and of Christianity. That's very unfortunate. This is especially glaring considering that many Jews found their Messiah through the faithful witness of our caring Christian friends.

We have to be careful using “a nation that SHALL dwell apart and not be counted among the nations” (Numbers 23:9) it is related to pagan nations.

Be sure that the ideals of a nation united of an ethnic Israel would not fit with the promise in Isa 56:3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, "The Lord will surely separate me from his people";...

"these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; " Isa 56:7

"Yet {others} I will gather to them, to those {already} gathered." Isa 56:8

The 'way of the men' to protect 'Israel' is not always the proper way. But I have always said that the gentiles have to work hard in 'hold the covenant' ( Isa 56:6) aim to be holy. Nowadays the Messianic Jews Congregation welcome this gentiles after all.

My search for scriptural MJ resources led me to view this dialog, and the heady discourse raises red flags, along with bell and buzzers going off. When Yeshua prayed in Yochanan 17, that 'they' might be one as 'we' are one, should be the acid test of the body of Messiah. I understand that 'we' are the 'they' that HE referred to. For one group to claim superiority, is clearly arrogant, and would lead many to think that the MJ movement has prerequisites for membership. Gene continues to repeat the mantra of mjti, which hosts this forum, and is expected, but the greater question that must be considered is whether the 'mantra' will pass the acid test of 'all' scripture, not just a few choice selections. For a sect to claim superiority based on genetics is counter to the humility of Messiah. From all nations, they will be grafted in- into the commonwealth of Yisrael, where two become one. Obedience to G-d's ways determines much in this life. And for the MJ, scripture should be the guide, not what man says scripture says. David wrote that the place of harmony (P133) is where Adonai ordained blessing, and for anyone to claim superiority leads to discord. Shouldn't we strive for the lowest place and strive to become echad, rather than dwell on the wedge of separation?

"For one group to claim superiority, is clearly arrogant, and would lead many to think that the MJ movement has prerequisites for membership."

What a baseless accusation - can you point me to the part of this dialog where superiority of Jew over Gentile has been claimed or even implied? I don't know why you have chosen to resent, envy and deny the G-d-given distinctions and callings of the Jewish people, calling Jewish believers a "sect" (with all that implies).

"From all nations, they will be grafted in - into the commonwealth of Yisrael, where two become one. "

Can you show us from scripture where it says that when Yeshua returns he will erase all distinctions between nations and peoples and that every redeemed on earth will become Israel and Israelites?

Also, can you explain how husband and wife can be "one" and equal before G-d, yet still remain male and female, with all the different characteristics, responsibilities and gifts those differences entail, while the same, according to you and others, is not true in regards to Jews and Gentiles being one in the Body (that's is composed of many different parts)? Echad means "unity", not sameness or uniformity.

Wow! I really enjoyed this entire post...it reminded me of what the 1st century Messianic Community must have experienced. Blessings to each of you for your opinions and thanks for remaining united in HIM.

Am i wrong or was it a fact that some of the greatest rabbis were converts i.e. once gentiles but now jews?

Isn't it also true that in the torah a great multitude left egypt, but there was one people at sinai?

Also the fact that Ruth a goy joined herself to israel was considered a "jew" for all intents and purposes.

It is my understanding that conversion makes a goy 100% jewish or specifically a part of bnei yisrael. It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are; this is proven by wider jewish world being white, black, and asian; but all are considered jewish.

Regarding the distinction between Jews and non-Jews. On one hand I have the idea that "Gentiles" (literally: Goyim, Stranger, Heathen, Pagan) who are grafted in to Israel via their trust in Messiah can no longer be considered "Gentiles", considering what the term "Gentile" actually means. One cannot be attached to the God of Israel and remain a Gentile in my logic. It would be like saying you are a Pagan "God-fearer". One cannot be both. One who truly fears the God of Israel keeps his Torah, regardless of heritage or race. On the other hand, I don't believe that the term "Nations" always must be interpreted the same as "Gentiles". The term "Gentiles" is more of a spiritual condition, whereas the "Nations" is a territorial distinction. I have come to the conclusion that although non-Jewish nations will never become ethnic Jews, they ARE commanded NUMEROUS times in the Scripture to be Torah observant. What I envision is both Torah observant Jews and Torah observant non-Jews, distinct from one another culturally to some degree, but not distinct in their obedience to God's will as defined in his Torah. Both parties will become "whole persons" in the Torah, in the Messiah. The non-Jew does not need to carry all the Talmudic baggage if he does not desire to, but the non-Jew IS required by God to hold fast to God's original Torah covenants to which he has been adopted. The key element here is that the Torah belonged to God before he gave it to the Jewish people. The Torah is God's perfect will for all mankind, for he designed the entire universe with his Torah. Israel was called to "be a light to the nations"....for what? So the Nations could go on doing their own heathen things? No. Israel is to be a light so that the Nations would eventually follow their Torah example. There is an element of Torah observance seperate and distinct from Jewish cultural tradtions, and it need not detract from a born Jew's cultural identity and continuity. In the future, there will yet remain Nations culturally distinct from Israel, but not divided over Torah. They will be required to observe Sukkot or "not recieve any rain". I'm sure even though it is not explicity mentioned in the Ketuvim Netzarim/Bris Hadasha, that the Nations will be observing the rest of the Moedim as well, considering the scripture references below, for example.

Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Numbers 9:14 'If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.'"

Numbers 15:15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'" (NAS

Leviticus 24:22 The same rule applies to every one of you. It makes no difference whether you are a foreigner or an Israelite, because I am the LORD your God."

For you non-Jews out there faithfully obeying God thru his Torah and maintaining your testimony of mashiach, more power to you and shalom....for my Jewish mishpocha, keep doin' what ya do. If the few non-Jews in your congregation are causing you to "lose your identity as a Jew"...what a weak and miserable Jew you are. Chazak, Chazak V'Nit Chazek! You ought to be instructing your fellow sojourners in Torah so that they won't drag you down with their goyishe baggage from their previous lives. What we need is healthy Torah Jews and healthy Torah non-Jews....both distinct culturally, but ONE in Torah. Let's cut the crap people, and get down to bussiness.

Dear Sir,

Regarding the distinction between Jews and non-Jews. On one hand I have the idea that "Gentiles" (literally: Goyim, Stranger, Heathen, Pagan) who are grafted in to Israel via their trust in Messiah can no longer be considered "Gentiles", considering what the term "Gentile" actually means.

Your argument may make sense to you and to some others, but I am afraid it is false to Scripture and based upon false assumptions over and over again. First of all, Gentiles does not mean “literally: Goyim, Stranger, Heathen, Pagan”). It is a perfectly clear Hebrew word which means “nations,” used generally to apply to those nations other than Israel. Even Abram is told to get out of his country, and God would make of him a “goy gadol”, that is, “a great nation.” Obviously, God could not be saying, “I will make of you a great stranger, heathen, or pagan, as you postulate in your well meaning but faulty argument.

I am glad you say, “One cannot be attached to the God of Israel and remain a gentile in my logic,” for it is only in your logic that this cannot be so. Scripture says precisely that, which is why, for example, Paul can say to his converts in Rome, “I am speaking to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am an Apostle to the Gentiles.” Paul is never confused nor embarrassed about calling his converts “Gentiles.” You see, “Gentile” is not a dirty word. Although it formerly was applied to pagans, in Christ Gentiles become part of the people of God, but remain Gentiles, because they are not descendants of Jacob, not the people of Israel. Paul is clear on this, and it is impossible to make sense out of his letter while ignoring this.

On the keeping of Torah, I am afraid, my friend, you are also illogical. If a Gentile keeps Torah, then indeed he becomes a Jew, because keeping Torah includes ritual circumcision (not done in a hospital but done by authorized personnel qualified to welcome such persons into the family of Jacob), whereby one becomes a Jew. Paul says in Galatians 5:3, that anyone who receives circumcision is obligated to keep the entire Torah . . . because he is therefore a Jew. But Paul and all the apostles were clear that Gentiles are not required to keep Torah. See for example the contrast James states in an almost off hand manner in Acts 21:25, that the Gentiles who have believed, in contrast to Paul, a Jew, whom James expects to keep/walk in conformity to the Torah, are NOT required to do so. Rather, James says, “As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality" (Acts 21:25). I know you may find some way to discount this, but it is my considered observation that the Scripture is so strong on these issues, that only one determined to go against the grain of the apostolic witness will argue otherwise.

Often these arguments are based upon a hidden assumption that somehow being a Gentile is second rate. God forbid! Paul would have a coronary over this, for his entire argument to his Gentile converts on this matter is that in Christ, being a Jew or being a Gentile is not the point. The point is, Christ makes Gentiles, former pagans, fully acceptable to God. And to say otherwise, is to disparage Christ and to say that his work on the cross and through the open tomb, ascension and High Priesthood, is not enough to make Gentiles acceptable to God as Gentiles. Again, there is NOTHING wrong with being a Gentile, and if the gospel is true at all, which it is, Gentiles are fully “acceptable in the Beloved, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace” (Eph 1:6-7).

There are other aspects of your comment which are equally unfortunate, as, for example, the reference to “Talmudic baggage,” as if Oral Law is an unnecessary appendage. The fact is, the Torah has never existed apart from a community which discusses among itself “now how are we going to do this?” And as soon as you have community, you have orality. This disparagement is unnecessary and has the whiff of unbecoming anti-Judaism about it. Not nice, not necessary, and not supportable.

The proof texts you evince for one law for Jews and Gentiles alike (Ex. 12:49; Num 9:14, 15:15-16; Lev 24:22) do not apply to your argument for they all concern the political and sociological relationship between Jews and Gentiles living as one holy encampment as part of a theocratic nation in transition to the Holy Land, a nation with rulership, government, etc. These are not comments about religious categories as we view them, but rather religio-political arrangements proper to an historical context no longer in effect. They prove nothing, I am afraid.

Forgive me for not taking the time to respond to every point in your long posting. I have to limit myself on such matters.

Shalom.

Sorry for the garbled first paragraph above. which SHOULD read as follows:

Regarding your comment on the distinction between Jews and non-Jews. "On one hand I have the idea that "Gentiles" (literally: Goyim, Stranger, Heathen, Pagan) who are grafted in to Israel via their trust in Messiah can no longer be considered "Gentiles", considering what the term "Gentile" actually means." (Note the quotes, indicating that I am quoting from you, Rob, and that therefore, what follows is in response. Sorry for the gaffe.

Good points Rob. I am taking this group off my list. I have never seen so many misinterpretations of scripture and twisting them around for your own benefit and feelings of self congratulations. The part that makes me the most sad, is that you guys are actually DRIVING people AWAY from YHWH. Shame! Kind of remniscent of of other times when people wanted to keep Jews out of their clubs, neighborhoods and such. I guess you at least let them hang around while you tell them how seperate they are. You need to add a little heart into your message and remember that Yeshua was OUR EXAMPLE and He was WHAT? A JEW!

I aghree with Rob
Ehpesian cghapter 2 does refer to pagans not just nations
We are one in the messiah our living Torah
No one should put back the wall f partition
God bless

Wow-still listening in and still arguing over who is privileged enough to keep Torah. If Torah defines rightousness (which it does) then only Jews can act in righteous ways? If a Gentile keeps Torah, then he is only imitating a Jew? I hope they do not imitate the Rabbis but imitate Messiah who kept Torah. Was 1 John 2 written only to Jews? Walk in the sammer manner as Messiah (footnote only if you are a Jew?)

When I distill this whole chain, that is what I find. You can keep the matza ball soup, and the claim that G-d has "commanded" you to kindle lights on Shabbat (which He has not, blessed be He) - I don't really want those things anymore. However that is where this culture war is taking place.

This chain of argumentation confuses ethnic identity (I am Jewish, you are not) and tradition (G-d has not commanded much of what the Rabbi's commanded, how dare anyone Jew or Gentile claim that) with righteousness as defined in the TaNaKh. 2 Tim 3:16 - profitable for training in righteousness is a claim regarding the TaNaKh, not Shaul's letter to Timothy.

I have nothing against tradition unless its claims contradict the clear pronouncements of Torah. If the Gentiles are disappointed over tradition, more power to them staying away from it.

Disappointed Gentiles is not the issue, a disappointed Messiah is. Where in the Bible does it say who is qualified to perform a bris and where can it only be performed? You have confused the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the Rabbis.

Call me a Karaite for my approach to His Holy Word and you will have blessed me for weeks to come. If G-d really did give an "Orall Law" why then did you write it down. This argumentation is really making me a disappointed Jew, for ethnically I cannot deny my genetics, spiritually though I can deny my culture when it holds the Rabbis above G-d. Could He really crete a man He could not defeat? There is power in the Rabbi's claims, but not godly power. Please please remain isolated so that the Gentiles are not misled.

Steve

More inaccurate and over-emotional rhetoric I am afraid. The wall of partition was the wall that marked Gentiles as not being part of the people of God. That is no longer true. Gentiles are, in Christ, part of the people of God. But one has to ignore huge swaths of the Pauline corpus to thereby draw the conclusion that Gentiles thereby become Jews!

As for "driving people away from YHWH," not at all! The call has gone out to all the nations of the earth to come into full relationship with Hashem through Yeshua his Son. But to therefore say that Gentiles thereby become Jews, and that they become heirs of Torah is back door supersesisonism--if the Gentiles become Jews thorough faith in Christ, then the Jews lose their distinctive identity and calling.

Paul doesn't teach this and neither should we.

Hear me again. In Christ Gentiles are full and equal partners with Israel and part of the people of God. But that does not make them Jews. The wonder of the One New Man is that God enables two communities that remain distinct (not separate!) to live in unity in Christ. He does this not by destroying the distinctions, but by overcoming the power those distinctions formerly had to exclude Gentiles from the status of being his people too.

And one more thing. We who are Messianic Jews must never disparage Gentiles or make them feel inferior. This does not mean that we ought not to maintain distinctions. Just as we ought to preserve distinctions between male and female without either disparaging the other, so we ought to preserve proper distinctions between Jew and Gentile without disparagement. And just as neither women nor men should feel inferior or superior to the other, so with Jews and Gentiles in Christ.

Paul speaks of two fullnesses in the consummatiing purposes of God--the fullness of the Gentiles and the Fullness of Israel. These are TWO outworkings of the Divine Purpose, not one. Both outworkings are accomplished through the same Messiah, but they arae distinct workings of the Divine Purpose. Again, notice how Paul is not confused. For him the distinction lasts into the eschaton. Meanwhile, many around us seek to either ignore or demolish the distinction.

Women are not inferior, but neither are they men. Gentiles are not inferior, but neither are they Jews.

When Paul says their i neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, bond nor free, he is not obliterating distinctions--he is attributing equal status to all.

Correction on last paragaph above - it should read:

"When Paul says there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, bond nor free, he is not obliterating distinctions--he is attributing equal status to all."

Thanks.

Interesting argumentation. But it is just that: "What do we do with all these blasted "Gentiles...these Goyim" that keep wanting to be Messianics? I really thought Acts 15 would have cleared that up as well as the writings of Rabbi Shaul...not to mentioned the 10 men from the nations prophecy. It's disappointing to me to see that there is a clear wall of distinction being raised, once again, but I must consider the source. In Messianic Judaism there is a push to recapture all that is rabbinic tradition and distinction...and for what reason??

Multiple Choice:

a) Because people are afraid to lose their identity

b) Because people are proud and need to be distinct.

c) Because the Rabbis had it right and Messianic Jews need to be Jewish with a little bit of Messiah thrown in for salvation purposes.

Really...what's the point? I think the point of the article and the discussion is completely disappointing. It stinks of pride and pity toward the nations...an attitude that our father Avraham would have detested.

May it NEVER be. We are one in Messiah, One in His commonwealth, One in body and in brotherhood. Echad.

Divide and conquer is the strategy of the enemy and the sooner that people realize that, the better we will all become. Now the question remains...whose side are you on? Shall we accomplish our "goals" (as aforementioned) by continuous division and separation or shall we be the answer of Messiah "may they be as one as you and I are one".

What is the goal of your Judaism??? To entrench in tradition or rescue your brother. Let us not forget Heb. 10:28 for therein...if read in context...your Christian brothers should be knocking down your "Disappointed Goyim" doors in desperation.

My brothers...what will you do then because, tradition and identity or not...it's coming. The day will come when 10 men (bringing all their goyish baggage come pounding at your doors. You must decide, truthfully, would Messiah turn them away as your "Disappointed Gentile" friends feel. What is truly your motivation? I seriously believe that together, united, we are much stronger in the persecution to come than we will ever be should we continue in this divided "Messianic" front that is continually propagated by those whom feel theologically enlightened.

Clinton... I don't think you get the point, frankly. This probably stems from your deep disdain for the Jews, their nation, their history, their traditions, their leadership, and their culture. You would be the last spokesman for unity between Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Messiah.

Within Messianic Judaism there's a big difference between Gentiles who want to be WITH Jews, and Gentiles who want to pretend to BE Jews and judaize other Gentiles by telling them they must observe the Mosaic Law to live a life pleasing to G-d.

The first group is welcomed by Messianic Jews within our synagogues - many of these Gentiles truly love and support our people, and they do this without lecturing the Jews on how to be Jews or pretending to be something that they are not. They are really the picture of unity between Jews and Gentiles.

The second group (to which you seem to belong) does not like Jews very much (along with all their "silly" rabbinical traditions, loyalty to their own people, their pride, their separateness, their "weird" culture, their wanting their children to continue to be Jews). Some are quite antisemitic at their core (pardon me, "anti-rabbinic"). This second group (which usually worships in their very own very special Jew-free "synagogues") thinks they know better than the Jews about how to worship and live under Mosaic Covenant. They keep their own "correct" calendars, keep the laws the "uncorrupted" and "biblical" way, and tell all the Gentiles they come across about how pagan and wicked churches really are.

If only these "prideful" Jews just went away somehow - why, it would cause no problem at all - this group of proud "former Gentiles" believes that they are the real Israelites (without all this burdensome and divisive rabbinical stuff that Messianic Jews cling to.)

Clinton, I have to agree with you and the many others who realize the waywardness of this separatist vein. Any wall of separation within the body of Messiah is contrary to Yeshua's prayer of oneness in John 17. Who would dare disagree that ........................................................................................the most hate-full word ever, is .....'exclusive'............................................................................................... I for one try to lose my identiy in the Messiah. Those that claim to follow him, should strive to be like him. The shallow arguements of the Schlomovitches of this world, along with their side-kick attack dogs, are self-serving,and ironically, in a movement led by the one who is selfless. Let them eat their own vomit. I am moving on....

To summarize David J's two posts above, the Messianic Jews are, in his own words:

- arrogant
- feel superior to non-Jews
- sowing discord in the Body
- wayward
- separatist
- building up a wall
- contrary to Yeshua
- exclusivist / hate filled
- shallow
- self-serving
- like dogs that eat their own vomit
- not worthy of his fellowship or time

David, do you have anymore "love" to share with the Jewish followers of Yeshua?

The defense rests its case :)

As a Gentile member of a Messianic Congregation I am very disturbed by my Christian family. It seems that the book of Romans has not been taught to them. We who are G-d fearing Gentiles have one purpose. We G-d fearing Gentiles who love the Jewish people have one purpose according to Paul...."But by their (the Jewish members of the congregation) transgression salvation (Yeshua) as come to the Gentiles to make them(Jews) jealous", Romans ll:11. This confused me for years before hearing the teaching from the Jewish community. This Book of scripture was written to the Gentiles in the Congregation in Rome. It was overrun by Gentiles and they (we) were causing the Jewish believers to stumble.

Hear the word of Adonai here, "Do not be arrogant toward the branches, but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root but the root who supports you." Romans 11:18.

Just because we have the opportunity to hear a love affair between the Messiah and the Jewish people does not give us the right to come between or push into that love affair. WE HAVE REALTIONSHIP WITH MESSIAH BECAUSE OF THE STUMBLING OF THE JEWS. Baruch Ha Shem. Let us listen instead of being so self righteous about our place. G-d Himself has given us a place with Him and the Jewish people. He has given us the Jewish people through whom to reveal Himself. Revel in THAT not stiving for position.

Let us take delight in helping the Jewish people to fulfill their destiny in Messiah. The scriptures tell us we will be blessed for it.

Please forgive me if I have rambled on. I thank the Jewish people for showing me this love affair. I will never be the same!

Janet

How can we make the Jewish people jealous?

By this type of discussion or listening to the depth of their teaching? By demanding our place or knowing our place by the teaching of scripture. We have been taught wrong in many cases. Let us learn and not filter our thoughts through old teaching. G-d has given us the Jewish people so that we may Know HIM. I want to know HIM. If I have to sit and relearn scripture to help the Jewish people fulfill their destiny I will have taken my place.

Forgive us for our foolishness,
Janet

This dialog is interesting because have struggled with this topic myself. In the same vein as Janet's sentiments, let us seek to be led by the Holy Spirit, and be guided in love concerning our (Gentile) role in the Messianic Jewish community. And let us study our motives and be alert to whether fear has any part.

How sad it would be if a non-Messianic Jew, seeking to learn about Yeshua, visited a Messianic Jewish congregation and looked about and determined that this was not really a Jewish community, because there were so many Gentiles participating and from his/her perspective it was confusing who was who and which was which.

The Apostle Paul expressed that he was free to eat and drink what he pleased, but he would refrain when necessary so as to edify others.

The Messianic Jewish community is yet a fledgling organization, and the guidelines that Stuart and other are trying to formulate are on the right track. Making these guidelines clear up front will help to avoid offense and embarrassment and let us know it is not about rejection, but about order and about the greater mission. As believers we can be secure enough in the love of Yeshua to maintain a low profile and take a back seat, while knowing that our Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters do not think any less of us and understand that we are united as equals in Yeshua.

For those Gentiles who are led by the Holy Spirit to convert to Judaism, G-d will open the doors and lead them to a congregation where there will be a mutual blessing from this process. Praise G-d that all his ways are peace and that he divinely appoints favor so that his will is carried out.

As a followup to the comments above it might do well fro Rabbi Dauermann to to refer some of the "disappointed" to the teaching of Russ Resnick on Hesed. This article teaches us to embrace the margins. A good answer for those of us who are Gentiles but are confused by having to embrace our place in the margins!

Thank you for this site and the revelation of the scriptures so that we may understand.

I have enjoyed the reading and see that you realise the limitations of email - having a Kosher meal, some maiza & wine, talking, hugging a HOLY Kiss with tears and a I am sorry - Soon we will be in Jail together, placed there because we Love the G-d of Israel and Yeshua, that will sort us out!Yeshua Messiah to me it is simple - Salvation is from the Jews. Jewish way of life, clean blood, family, nation and Torah with Oral thoughts - Now Messiah has come, does not end your requirement that you must do, as for me, Elohim knows who I am, the way I should go that is what we Strive to say Abba - O the Joy - the Holy Spirit is working in my life. Now to focus your thoughts, what we Gentiles need with you is The Hebrew Life Jewish Thinking Theocentric - not another type of Theological(roman or greek)church - Be true to your self & Jewish traditions and Life style in Torah and Messiah the Comming Jewish King will make us Eahad and when I come to your assemble, I will be sensitive to your problems and follow your rules - because WE LOVE Him, we MUST love each other not of/in fear for that is not of the Spirit and Torah! Circumsision of Heart, every thought, and motive, Trusting G-D and His Messiah, in His Kingdom today and forever - because of Who G-D is Light, Love, Peace & Judge! hoping you have secured the disparing brother in the text above and secured him. Now In Him who loved Us the only True G-d of Israel, G-D of Abraham Issac & Jacob, King of the Universe who made us His own. Gen 1:1 Deut 6:4 Rev 22
Our King Comes let Him find us ready His People! A G-dfearer Wilson and lover of my Jewish Father Son & (7fold Isa 11:2) Holy Spirit!

So far in this discussion I haven't realy seen it stated how Jews or Gentiles are to participate in service. Can a Gentile recieve an aliyah to read from the Torah or can they do the kiddush? Is there any distinction in their walk and if so what?

Also for full disclosure I have attended a Messianic Synagogue for about 3 years now. I was raised as a Gentile in and out of churches of different denominations. I don't know anything about my lineage past my grandparents (and barely that.) I have had a hatafat dam brit and I keep Torah to the best of my ability. My family and I keep Shabbat and eat Biblically kosher. In our synagogue Jews and Gentiles worship together equally ie there is no distinction in recieving of aliyot or berachot.

Our Rabbi has taught that I (and others like me) aren't Jewish but Stuart said "What do you call a Gentile who keeps the entire law? Answer . . . a Jew."

Even after 3 years there seem to be many contradictory and confusing ideas in Messianic Judaism. There does't seem to be an agreed upon Halacha and there does seem to be some exclusiveness, which is very disturbing for someone who feels they have been led by G-d to be here but still feels at times like they don't belong. Considering from what I've seen so far Messianic Judasim is already predominately made up of Gentiles (or former Gentiles) who aren't going to abandon G-d's call on their life, these issues need to be better addressed and resolved.

This conversation is quite 1st century, a little too first century. Such contentions should be a thing of the past. Traditional rabbis have dealt better than this to heal worse breaches with Christian leader. When Luther turned to his anti-Semitism, completely pulling the carpet out under Jews who were also involved in the Reformation, Rabbi Josel Roscheim of Strasbourg sought reconciliation with him 7 times, but could never get to see him. You can ask the rabbis the significance of that number and therefore understand Roscheim’s regard for Luther.

For Jews and Gentiles that believe there should be far softer arguments than those on this discussion.

The LORD has spoken plainly: “Israel is my son, Jacob is my first born.” All that he has he has given to the nations, salvation and eternal life. You shall always stand with him, not as servants but as sons and daughters. But do not begrudge the prodigal if he should return and God should give him a feast. Israel is his firstborn, and for his great namesake he will clothe him in purple and give him his honored place at the table; and the firstborn shall love his younger siblings and do battle for them.

Therefore the rabbis have their duty to maintain the first born, for so it is written: “Even for all they have done Israel shall not cease to be a nation before me.”

If you have younger siblings coming to your congregations, take them under your wing and teach them properly. Remember, he loves the “little ones” no matter what their age is. Therefore those of you who are older remove the stumbling block and care for the little ones. This is Israel’s glory in all the world, and it is the will of God.

We are different, Jew and non-Jew as God intended, but we are the SAME before God. That is, as long as we both believe in and accept the sacrifice/payment that Jesus Christ made on our behalf. We have both been made acceptable to Him through the shed blood of our Lord.

There are many parts of the body and they are all different from one another. They each have a different purpose... but they ALL work together in harmony for the same purpose... glorifying God. Some parts have more important roles than others. We should not focus on our roles, but keep our focus on Jesus. We have all been made in God's image, but we are all different from one another. That's God's plan and his desire. We should not focus on our differences, but focus on what unites us all... our Lord Jesus Christ. However, we must be careful not to cause anyone Jew or non-Jew to turn away from our Lord because of how we treated them.

I am EXCITED about the Jews accepting Jesus Christ as their Brother and Messiah.

I do not have a desire to become Jewish (convert). I am comfortable in my understanding and in my relationship and my daily walk with the Lord and in my role in the Body of Christ. My concern, and it sounds like the concern of several here... what is the reason a person wants to become a Jew who is not Jewish. I find it a reasonable question, as there may be some who feel that the non-Jews will be 'closer' to God or more holy if they convert. That type of thinking is not of God, but Satan. I find it reasonable for the MJ fellowships to want to gently test and question those who desire to make such a change to make sure that their hearts and minds are focused on Christ's sacrifice and not on man's understanding of what makes us right with God. God desires order. He does not desire division. Division is from Satan. The church has seen and continues to experience this unfortunately. This means that Satan is still hard at work trying to divide us and he will continue until Christ's return.

The leaders of the MJ fellowship should do EXACTLY what they are doing here... reach out and try and find a solution. I congratulate them on this. The Holy Spirit will show them the way. Together, we should not focus on the minute details of how to serve our great God. We should be in the daily habit of studying His Word and continually surrendering of ourselves to Him (Jew and non-Jew) and asking Him to help us serve Him like Christ would want us to. This way what God wants will be made clear through His Holy Spirit. We are ALL running this race together, let us help each other reach the finish line just as Christ would want us to do.

The Messianic Jews are a blessing to us all. They are a sign to me that many other Jews will come to know our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and this is a sign that our Lord will return soon. The most important thing to keep in mind here, is that God is in control and He can do anything He wants and He is and WE are witnesses to this. I personally do not expect large numbers of Jews who do not believe in Jesus yet, to be 'won' over to Him by non-Jews (ie, Christians). I believe that the Messianic movement may be the natural way many Jews who are not believers will become believers in Christ. No believer should stand in the way with small arguments over details as long as Jesus Christ is shown to be the only way how to be made right with God. Traditions and not eating certain foods are important to the Jews and that's OK and proper. That is what God commanded them to do... again as long as Christ is the most important goal and these other items do not over shadow that sacrifice, then I see no problem with it. So if you are not born a Jew and you want to convert, you must search your own heart as to your motives and be sure that Satan has not tricked you into thinking that you will be made 'more' right with God than the shed blood of Jesus. To me this can be a real trap and a real concern for the leaders of the MJ fellowship, as this can cause division and ultimately cause harm to the group and ultimately the whole Body of Christ.

Every man must worship God to the best of his ability and his life must be a Light helping those around him to see God's love and his Free Gift. If there is division, then there is not Light. That man must examine his motives. If he will not, then the leaders of that fellowship should. We serve a magnificent God, but we do so in imperfect bodies and minds, so we should all be aware and careful of that.

I believe hard times are ahead for the Body of Christ. We must pray for each other everyday, be strong in our faith, help each other and be ready for our Lord's glorious return.

Yours in Christ.

-Patrick

The time is coming when these issues will not seem so important anymore.
In that time all your questions and teachings will be answered by the actions of those around you. When those you thought were of you turn against you, when those you thought beneath you come to your aid, when you witness acts of greater love than you thought possible.

Obey God, and keep His Commandments from a heart that desires to please Him.
Love all men, pray for your enemies, love your family, be faithful to your true wife.

Be living epistles!!!!!!!!!

I read this article in hopes that i would find some heart felt compassion for gentiles who desire to be in a gathering of a church which has a strong emphasis on the hebraic roots of christianity. To my disapointment, this article just shows the true color of how the "majority" of Messianics feel toward non jews.

You write, "We are a family friendly community of Jews and Intermarrieds." So you are really only receptive of "gentiles" who have married a jew, so consequently because of there jewish spouse you receive them warmly. This is not the case whith unmarried gentiles. I come to this conclusion by your other words which testifiy to such a truth. For example, you state, "Gentile will naturally invite gentile friends, and when that happens, our congregation is rapidly demographically overwhelmed. Then our congregation would cease to be or become what it has been called to be."

So what your saying is gentiles shouldn't come for the purpose of edification, growth, fellowship all because..well there gentiles and not jews. This will supposedley, "take away your identity" and "overwealm" your demographic. I see...so keep the jews with the jews...and gentiles with gentiles. Yet you are angry when others discriminate against your people for their race. The anger of the LORD burned within me as i read this article. The Scriptures are against such discrimination. IN Christ we are all one, and our identity is in him, though we come from all Nations and cultures. There are no second class citizens with GOD. Yet you say, well they ( the non jews) are disapointed with our church because they expected "steak" at a "vegetarian" resteraunt. In other words they expected to be treated as equalls in the LORD but because they were not regarded as such they were disapointed. To add to such statement you say "we should not be ashamed of their dissapointment". As you stated, " when some gentiles come.... they will be disappointed that we don't treat them or regard them accordingly. Are your eyes really so darkened? That you have to do a form of "ethnic cleansing" and starve gentiles of the truth of GOD for the purpose of so called holding onto your jewish identity? This is wickedness and not right before GOD. Are you any different from the orthodox jews? Or the talmudic prospective of the gentile? God will be the judge over this matter. Congradulations, you have succesfully turned a gentile (non jew) away from your jewish gathering. I mean after all that was probably your aim.

I thank God that His salvation and rest is not based on race or how jewish one can be. But on Faith alone, which is accompanied by works. May the LORD bless those who read these words and see the truth of GOD in them.

Rabbi Dauermann-
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for saying this and taking action! I wish this had been the norm in Messianic Judaism years ago. (I wish it was the norm now.)

My wife and I left a Messianic Synagogue because they did not consider us to be Jewish. Why were we so upset by this?

Because the Ruach HaKodesh has written the Torah in our hearts and we desire to follow it. We want to do more than simply avoid doing the four pagan practices of Acts 15 (i.e. eating things polluted by blood, sexual immorality, etc). We want the Torah that King David loved so much. I'm a sinner but my soul wants to cry out "How wonderful is your Torah!"

To the converts out there: don't let self-righteous Messianics dissuade you from following Torah. Forgive them and love them. And study Torah with your wives or with your friends.

Leave groups that are racist. We left to a different town and prayed that G-d would send us a Torah-observant community and, sure enough, He did just that.

We decided one night to visit at a Reform Synagogue on the same night that another Believing family decided to visit that same Reform Synagogue. It turned out that they were running a Torah-observant fellowship group out of their house. So we've been going there and we've been very happy.

If Messianics do not want to give you the protections of the Covenant and the Divine Constitution (Torat Moshe) then just leave there and trust in G-d to show you a community that will actually love you and help you learn Torah just as the Early Believers did (Acts 15:21).

Shalom and G-d bless!

"That you have to do a form of "ethnic cleansing" and starve gentiles of the truth of GOD for the purpose of so called holding onto your jewish identity? This is wickedness and not right before GOD."

What is more selfish and inconsiderate?

Is it for Jews to start their own congregation where Jewish followers of Messiah can finally be at "home" after two thousand years of persecution from all sides and forced assimilation, to raise their children as Jews in a Jewish environment among other like-minded Jews (and have them marry Jews instead of intermarry and risk losing their identity)?

Or is it for a Gentile guest to come into a Jewish congregation and DEMAND membership, DEMAND that the often very limited synagogue resources be allocated to their needs (instead of Gentiles helping with needs of Jewish believers as they are exhorted to), DEMAND that they be allowed to partake in Jewish lifecycle and Jewish rituals, DEMAND that Messianic Jews swallow false theologies which teach that Gentiles should become "Torah-observant" or they are really "Lost Tribes of Israel", and join in hating Christianity alongside these so called "guests"?

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.